St. Louis police at it again (NSFW or your living room) …..

"Milky" (jordanmielke)
08/20/2014 at 22:07 • Filed to: Ferguson, St. Louis, Police, Shooting

Looks obviously like Suicide-By-Cop … oh and the person is black.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

There isn't even anything to be said that isn't overly apparent.

DISCUSSION (76)

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:13

You understand he was coming at them armed with a knife, right?

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:13

"Shoot me!" Then advancing towards the cops... Sounds/looked like suicide by cop to me.

KylesPerGallon > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:15

I am completely against the militarization of our police force. However theres no excessive showing of force by these officers. They were geared for regular patrol.

There is a 21 foot window, whereby an attacker with an edged weapon can be taken down by lethal rounds. This suspect was clearly WELL within that limit and the officers responded accordingly. They didn't need teargas and bearcats and ballistic shields and snipers.

Could he have been taken down in a less lethal fashion? Of course. But in that time frame what they did was perfectly justified.

Just some young dumb guy who happened to be african american who probably wanted to become a Martyr for his community because how he saw the reaction to Brown. It's sad really.

Josh Brinzo > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:17

Why did they fire so many shots?

GhostZ > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:19

...why the hell don't you shoot a guy once in the shoulder or leg, instead of pulling half a clip in him? EDIT: Yeah, this is stupid to say, my bad, wasn't thinking when I typed it.

They claim the guy had a knife. Even if he did, that is the definition of excessive force.

sellphones2493 > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:20

RACISM RACISM OMG OMFG

I'm contacting Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson - let's see how they can spin this one.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 22:20

I guess to a point what they did was right, but I cant get over the fact that they shot him nine times. NINE. Don't you think that's a bit much? And at center mass, no less. Not even shooting him in the arm or knee, I understand that it's a quick thinking reaction, but I'd assume they're trained to aim for something other than the head or chest.

FWIW, I'm completely against the new American Army, I mean police force.

KylesPerGallon > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:23

Quite frankly the mob mentality and the biased reaction from bystanders is disgusting. Clear cut suicide by cop but people show up and see a black man on the ground and assume its racism. None of the witnesses ever say that he had an edged weapon on him and was advancing towards the cops. Standard procedure is to cuff the suspect regardless of condition also.

"This again." "Rubber bullets?" "Could have shot him in the leg."

HAH

BigBlock440 > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:26

Because hitting an arm or leg is harder, and not likely to stop someone (or even slow them down) if they're intent to stab you. Also, drugs. Arm or leg shots don't stop someone on meth or bath salts, and you have no idea what the person charging you may be on/thinking. There are also people who don't feel pain (or anything). As long as they're physically able to move, they won't even know they were hit.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 22:27

Fair point. This is honestly getting very stupid though. All of this, Ferguson and this now. It was definitely a martyr's suicide, and a damn pointless one that's only going to bring more conflict and drama to a situation that doesn't need any more than it's got now.

samssun > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:27

They shot him that many times because he was way too close, and a bullet isn't magic. Having someone bleed out 20 minutes later does no good if he's closed the distance and stabbed you repeatedly...arguably they should've taken the shot sooner and never let him get that close, but they were probably hoping to talk him down and avoid shooting entirely.

And not one defense trainer, public or private, anywhere on earth will tell you to aim for extremities or blow his trigger finger off Lone Ranger style. You always aim for center mass because it's the highest likelihood of both hitting and stopping your attacker, and even then you may not make it out ok.

KylesPerGallon > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:29

2 officers discharging their firearms. I don't own a gun. Never have, but I have shot before and I can guarantee you I can get off 4 rounds in a matter of a couple of seconds. You're not thinking to yourself, "well I hope 2 does the trick" or "I'll let my partner take this one"

They're trained to go center of mass. You are firing lethal rounds, the intent is to kill. Not to subdue, or to maim, or to slow.

There isn't even a question as to the justification of this incident. As much as I vehemently hate how over aggressive our police have become , they certainly still serve a purpose and it was carried out in exemplary fashion here.

samssun > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:30

No defense trainer in the world will tell you to do anything but aim for center mass. Aiming for extremities in a volatile situation is a recipe to miss, so you point where you're most likely to hit and stop the attacker, and even then it's a gamble since bullets aren't magic.

A quick google search will find you thousands of gruesome knife attack victims who underestimated their danger. If your attacker has a knife out and is within 8-10 yards, you're in trouble no matter how good a shot you are. They should've kept him further away, and fired sooner, which might've meant fewer shots, but they probably hoped to talk him down.

BigBlock440 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:32

Do you know how hard it is to hit someone in the arm or the knee when they're running at you? Also, they probably won't stop even if you do hit them. Police are trained to aim for center mass because it's a bigger target and easier to neutralize the threat. It may not kill whoever they shoot at, but it's much more likely to hit and stop someone hitting them in the abdomen than aiming the arm. Also, (can't watch the video, it won't play) you shoot until the threat stops coming at you. Were the first few shots enough? Did they even hit? No, you don't worry about that, you spend the extra $3-$5 and shoot until they stop. This isn't the movies.

GhostZ > BigBlock440
08/20/2014 at 22:32

Yeah, I realize how stupid suggesting arm or leg was after posting it. It makes complete sense to aim for the chest or shoulder. That being said, there are much better ways to subdue a person coming at you with a knife than killing them, but cops aren't trained, equipped, or even expected to do that.

It's an issue with a "shoot first, shoot to kill" protocol that doesn't work in real life, only on paper.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:33

copy and paste from something I posted on reddit (hate posting on reddit) but they had a similar view point so I thought I'd provide a neutral explanation.

"If they're going to fire once they're going to fire multiple times. If they make the decision to end this person they're going to do so without a doubt of survival - there's no gray area. What happens if they do a single shot a he bleeds out for a minute or longer, suffering? Maybe he gets hit in the spine and is a paraplegic after? (Never mind the massive shit storm lawsuit). Finally is the last stand scenario : gets shot once in the gut, goes now, not instantly fatal, draws a side arm and unloads as many rounds as they can. If the split decision is made they will do what's necessary to end that person quickly and without a doubt.

So why 8 shots? 2 officers, both making a split second decision, depending on training and reactions each fire 4. They didn't unload their clips or reload and continue to fire after. The big commentary from media, and I can guarantee it will be that the cops "unloaded on victim".

So why lethal force? The rule of thumb is 21 feet. If your gun is in holster and I'm within 21 feet I can get to you before you can draw and fire. This guy was what looks like 12 feet away. As soon as he made forward movement there wouldn't have been a chance in hell the officer could have holstered his side arm, draw a tazer, mace, baton, etc and defend himself."

Milky > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
08/20/2014 at 22:34

Yupp, I said it was suicide by cop in the post. I just can't get over how easy the whole thing was for both parties.

GhostZ > samssun
08/20/2014 at 22:37

You're right. My point was more that it's an issue with equipment and protocol that is designed to shoot to kill no matter what, and breaks down in the real world where you might cause crimes and death by following protocol.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 22:37

I know and understand that they serve a purpose. I've shot a firearm before and play airsoft as well; I know that the general thought process is to "shoot until they're hit or killed", Not trying to compare a sport to real life, but I get your point.I'm not siding with either side here(cops or people). I don't even think they did a bad job; as far as I know, they did what they thought was right. Was it aggressive? Of course! Was it necessary, I suppose so. This is just another messed up situation we all have to deal with.

Even so, cops are too powerful now to say the least.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:39

Even the whole Micheal Brown thing is once again, like Trayvon, pretty cut and dry. Per coroner report, every last gun shot wound verifies the officers story. They shot him mid charge. His head was down mid charge, the head shots were on top along with a grouping elsewhere that goes with well aimed shots. They officer was also injured by Brown. It isn't a police army, it is a media fueled army.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:39

It was pretty straightforward.

And it hasn't really stirred shit up around here as much as I thought it would.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > BigBlock440
08/20/2014 at 22:40

First off, he's walking towards them. And where do you get off thinking that I think this is a damn movie? I get it alright? What they did was necessary; doesn't change the fact that this is still a fucked up situation.

BigBlock440 > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:40

A knife will go right through a vest. Yes, there are other ways, tasers, batons, etc. but I don't fault the officers for not using them (in most instances). Maybe they didn't have tasers, and I don't think rubber bullets are normally kept at the ready, sure a baton was available, but that would have required getting close. If you're charging at police with a knife in hand, I have no sympathy when you get shot. At that point, it's not their responsibility to make sure they don't kill you, you through that away when you charged.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul
08/20/2014 at 22:43

Fine

Milky > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 22:44

The whole thing was too easy IMO.

He wanted to get shot and they obliged. It looks like pulled up on the edge of the 21 foot window, and immediately drew their weapons. It took 15 seconds to shoot him even with them knowing he had a only knife.

The whole thing is just fucked.

And on August 6th (someone posted in the comments on the gawker article) some white guy in California had his gun drawn and flailing around for an hour before cops put one bullet into him …. and then waited another half hour for him to eventually leave his gun.

I know hindsight is 20/20 and I get the cops did what they had to keep from getting stabbed …. but, just … fuck man.

KylesPerGallon > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:45

My main problem is the superiority complex most cops are instilled with these days. They look at it as "going to war".

I don't believe these two officers were in an aggressive mindset. They were probably a little charged up on adrenaline being called to an Armed Robbery call. But this is what they saw.

Brake. Doors Open. Suspect clearly visible outside.

Hands in his pocket. Request that he remove his hands.

Hands come out, edged weapon is present. Suspect begins advancing towards the officers brandishing weapon. Suspect begins yelling to officers "Shoot me".

Suspect retreats a few steps. Moves to advance on the other officer.

BOOM.

From the time they opened their doors till the time they felt threatened enough to discharge their firearms it was less than 15 seconds. Totally justified in my book.

Milky > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:47

Someone commented this on the gawker article. This is the correct way to handle the situation …. St Louis police did not do it the correct way.

http://www.10news.com/news/san-diego…

Big Bubba Ray > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:47

Fuck St. Louis. Seriously fuck this place. I'm so sick of the shit going on here it's ridiculous.

I want the fuck out of this place.

Milky > sellphones2493
08/20/2014 at 22:47

Its just shitty ….

GhostZ > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:49

One shot, non lethal. And the man had a gun .

People are going to argue that 'standing off' with a criminal is dangerous and takes way to long, but it can't be worse than the ungodly hell they just unleashed by killing the guy.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 22:50

Fine. Fair enough, good job cops. I guess the one thing to remember is that at the end of the day; we're all human beings, people and cops; who's to say that we wouldn't do the same. I probably would've done the same thing they have, as much as I wouldn't want to.

Milky > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
08/20/2014 at 22:50

Counter point …..

http://www.10news.com/news/san-diego…

The correct way to handle the situation.

AthomSfere > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:51

A man lost his life over two sodas. That is disgusting.

But! There is no question that the only person at fault is him. He stole the soda, made a scene and then charged the police yelling "Shoot me mother fuckers". They don't know if he is armed, tweaking on something nasty or what. They have to protect themselves too.

KylesPerGallon > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:52

I could see in a standoff, reinforcements would arrive and a less lethal option could be presented.

They responded with guns drawn from the time they exited their vehicle not knowing what the suspect was armed with. They didn't have more than 8 seconds to process that it was what you're claiming is, only a knife , to reholster their firearm and switch to a less lethal option.

The added fact that he not only was unresponsive to commands but also making threatening gestures well within their 21 foot window is not situation where any officer, let alone any regular person would consider putting their life at risk to try to save the life of another individual.

The only fucked part about this is that this guy wanted to kill himself to become a martyr, and that the police were forced to oblige. There was no room, no time, no opportunity to take that suspect down any way other than lethally in that situation. As sad as it is.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:52

I often wonder why cops don't go for more "disabling" shots when the suspect is not wielding a gun themselves...

Milky > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 22:52

Said perfectly, I have nothing to add.

Milky > Big Bubba Ray
08/20/2014 at 22:53

Dood, I live in Detroit and shit is looking good right about now.

BigBlock440 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 22:55

The video wouldn't play for me, and news reports said he charged them. Where you questioned the 9 shots from 2 people (and saying they should have shot him in the arm) is where I get off thinking you think this is a damn movie. Nine shots isn't even that many if it were one person shooting at a target, you could empty a clip in just s few seconds. With two people, it's 4-5 trigger pulls. You pull the trigger until they stop, if it takes a few seconds to stop, it takes a few more rounds.

I do think that police forces are getting way more militarized and viewing citizens as the enemy way too much, but I don't think this instance is an example of that.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Milky
08/20/2014 at 22:56

Eh, just let him do it. It's another waste of tax money. If he's serious about it, he'll probably do it another time. Ammo is a a lot cheaper than a cell.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:00

I know!! Not to say that Detroit is hell on earth when it's not. But I'd be hella safer in Detroit than STL

Milky > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 23:02

From the article - "the officers can be heard telling him to drop the knife", I'm not claiming that fyi. Unless your referencing my "only" thing, in which case I italicized it because I realize its a dumb thing to say, like a Viper has only 640hp …..

Anyways …… I'm not arguing against what you're saying, I get it. On the other hand I could sit here and say "why didn't they …." all night long.

Its just fucked.

KylesPerGallon > Josh Brinzo
08/20/2014 at 23:02

Why did they fire so little shots?

4 shots each in 2 seconds aint hard to do buddy. You dont know which ones made contact unless the suspect goes down. This aint a video game, you can't say that 3 bullets will take all his hit points away. You shoot until the threat is gone.

97 bullets would be excessive. If they had to reload, it would have been excessive. This was very little by most standards.

Milky > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
08/20/2014 at 23:02

Well thats one thought process ….

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > BigBlock440
08/20/2014 at 23:04

If you get to ever watch the video, he doesn't charge them like running, but rather walking somewhat casually. He was pretty damn close, so The shooting is justified on that fact. But you're right about two people who uncoordinated, fire 4-5 shots at one target.

If only police forces could dial it down a lot. But what can you do?

shpuker > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:04

9 shots from within 10 feet..... Really? You needed to shoot 9 times to stop him from advancing? I mean it's obviously suicide by cop but what the fuck.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:04

If more officers just end it all for the perp, I personally think it'll keep more people in line and off the center of the fucking street.

KylesPerGallon > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:05

It is fucked, on multiple accounts. I'm with you on that.

Ferguson is fucked, this guy was fucked, his martyr mentality was fucked, the crowd's stance was fucked, the fact the officers had to take someone's life was fucked.

I just don't think its racism fucked or militarized cops fucked or unjustified fucked.

But certainly was fucked.

Milky > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul
08/20/2014 at 23:11

But then why did they pull up 21 ft away? Also he goes down immediately and they keep shooting, even a few after and he is completely on the ground.

Milky > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
08/20/2014 at 23:13

Uh wat …. I'm out man.

Milky > shpuker
08/20/2014 at 23:15

Exactly how I feel. It was too fast and too easy.

michael bleggi > GhostZ
08/20/2014 at 23:15

it's hard to tell other people what they should of done unless you are in the situation yourself. The man could have prevented it, and the police were protecting themselves. I do'nt care how excessive it is, the man continued to approach the police without abiding by them. Do you think the police wanted to kill him? no, they were protecting themselves with the weapons they are supplied with. Are the weapons too lethal? maybe, but the police officers really didn't do anything wrong..

KylesPerGallon > shpuker
08/20/2014 at 23:16

That exchange took place over 3 seconds. Do you think the one officer is telepathically talking to his parter deciding who is gonna shoot?

4-5 shots each. How many actually hit him? You don't know. I don't know. For all we know only 1 bullet could have taken him down. But they shot until they knew he wasn't a threat to them anymore.

You can't be outraged at that. If they decided to reload and pump a few more rounds into his limp body I could understand but you're just being naive if you think otherwise.

Milky > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 23:21

Well there wasn't a MRAP in sight so not militarized for sure.

But I think it was just handled poorly, to say the least.

(also it might be racism, skip to 5:35)

Milky > michael bleggi
08/20/2014 at 23:26

They didn't do anything wrong ….. but they didn't do anything right either.

Milky > AthomSfere
08/20/2014 at 23:30

Well they knew he had a knife …. and he was waling towards them. But yea, they did what they had to do, just not what they should of done.

BigBlock440 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/20/2014 at 23:31

I don't want to say I'm looking forward to it, but I also hate making uninformed comments. I don't know if the video was taken down, or it's my computer/browser, but either way, I'm going by what I read, not what I saw. I do wish police forces could dial it down a bit, then I get to thinking about the gangs and cartels. Unfortunately, the force is justified sometimes, but only sometimes, which is the problem.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:31

From what I've been told on the ground doesn't mean dead. If they're to take 4 shots they're taking 4 shots, standing or down. Plus from the first to last shot is less than 2 seconds. Had there been a delay of a few seconds then yeah there's a problem, but they were all fired rapidly.

As to why they pulled up where they did that's a whole other level of police training. How far is too far, too close, etc?

Milky > nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul
08/20/2014 at 23:37

What I don't get though is why if there is this 21 foot thing, did they pull up to what looks like exactly that? and draw their guns immediately?

They were too ready to shoot, and he was too ready to die ….

shpuker > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 23:39

I'm not outraged. I'm frustrated. Officers are trained to shoot to kill in far too many circumstances. It just wasn't necessary. Tase the fucker. Shoot him in the leg. Tase him with two tasers. Don't shoot him 9 times.

They shot 4 times after he had already hit the ground. That's either excessive or just really shitty training.

nFamousCJ - Keeper of Stringbean, Gengars and a Deezul > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:39

I'm guessing it was either because of the overly volatile climate of Ferguson or when the call was made in someone said weapon. They could have said he had a butter knife and those guns would have still been drawn upon arrival.

It is sad that the gentleman was so willing to go but ultimately he got what he wanted (provided he wasn't bluffing). Either way it's sad, regardless of the case.

michael bleggi > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:41

i agree with this a lot!

KylesPerGallon > shpuker
08/20/2014 at 23:42

Yea, I'm not gonna repeat myself a million times. They were 100% justified in this situation without a doubt. Read some of the other comments if you think I'm wrong. They aren't trained to shoot to kill, they're trained to shoot till the threat is disabled. But as they are lethal rounds they are firing most often the suspect expires.

They had no time to go for a "less lethal" option in this situation. They had 8 seconds to make a snap decision and their training was executed perfectly.

michael bleggi > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
08/20/2014 at 23:44

have you ever shot a gun? it's not nearly as simple as point and shoot.. have you ever been in a situation where you're being approached by an unstable person that you don't know? i just feel as if it's easy to sit here and say "well they could've done this" but in the actual scenario, not much time to think over your actions is there. and the police office went to protect themselves, and they did that with the weapon they carry. now, i understand an argument to arm the police with less lethal weapons, however the individual officer didn't make any grave errors here... just my 2 cents, everyone comes from a different angle!

shpuker > KylesPerGallon
08/20/2014 at 23:46

I'll only say one thing, not going to argue with you. I'm only going to say this.

their training was executed perfectly.

This is the problem.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > Milky
08/20/2014 at 23:49

Would it have killed them been so difficult to turn the phone sideways?

shpuker > samssun
08/20/2014 at 23:49

They fired 4 times after he hit the ground...

I take that back, 5 shots after he hit the ground.

Milky > King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider
08/20/2014 at 23:52

I chuckled. This post needed some humor.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > Milky
08/21/2014 at 00:06

This whole situation (not just this moment, but the entire scenario) is so awful and pointless and needless, what else can one do?

GhostZ > michael bleggi
08/21/2014 at 00:23

The problem is that the police are institutionally trained to deal with these situations and minimize net damage. The defense that the Police weren't ready for this just shifts blame from the individual police to the training, equipment, and protocol (which, again, I think is the real problem).

They may not have chosen to do something wrong , but what is wrong and right in that scenario is defined by parameters that aren't realistic or in the interest and spirit of the law.

Josh Brinzo > KylesPerGallon
08/21/2014 at 00:27

I wasn't saying that he should go down in 1 shot, but it sounded like more than 4 shots to me. Either way, that guy put himself in a stupid situation.

KylesPerGallon > shpuker
08/21/2014 at 00:34

Their training saved their life in this situation. If they tried to reason with this guy without proper reinforcements it could have turned ugly fast.

KylesPerGallon > Josh Brinzo
08/21/2014 at 00:35

4 shots each.

shpuker > KylesPerGallon
08/21/2014 at 01:36

I'm not saying let the guy charge you repeatedly holding a huge ass knife. I'm saying don't shoot a guy that slowly walks towards you with a pocket knife 5 times after he goes to the ground due to your 4 very reasonable shots. Hell they even pause for a brief moment when he hit the ground and stopped moving, and then shot 2 more times.

Philbert/Phartnagle > Milky
08/21/2014 at 04:56

Aww man that's terrible. I have to wonder why they didn't try their tasers first?

Milky > Philbert/Phartnagle
08/21/2014 at 07:44

There is just a whole bunch of "why didnt they" in this situation.

crowmolly > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
08/21/2014 at 09:19

The movie thing is a common response to people who advocate using a firearm to disable and not neutralize. It's not a cheap shot at you directly.